User talk:Reignspike

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Shadow Kingdom edits[edit]

I can't say I agree with two parts of your edit here. [1]

1. The suggestion that the event is prevented by merely getting HRE members to control the eight provinces isn't borne out by the event file. The event trigger only checks HRE-membership of the provinces themselves, not the membership of their owner or their owner's overlord. Thus the article says eight provinces, not nine, because although Brescia is held by a non-HRE country, it's an HRE province and thus not a problem. If you're suggesting HRE member or member vassal AI can be relied upon to add all its provinces to the HRE, that would make sense, but it doesn't match my (limited) recent experience.

It's true that you could prevent the event by making sure every Italian-culture member is either annexed or vassalized by a Germanic member, but that's different from what you wrote. (And IMO not worth mentioning in a strategy section, because it would be quite rare for a player to meet that condition without being able to take the Rein In Northern Italy decision with far less effort and more result - he'd have to subdue all of north Italy instead of just Venice and the Papal State.

2. You say it's best to take Rome last, just before taking the Rein In decision - but why? As the text already suggested, Rome poses no problems so long as you add it to the HRE before returning it to the Pope when he requests it. That's totally independent of when you take any other provinces or take the Rein In decision. Check again the conditions for the Shadow Kingdom event and also the Rein In decision - the only thing special about these eight provinces, compared to the rest of north Italy, is that they're not in the HRE. The only way it'd make sense to leave Rome for last is if you were vassalizing the Pope instead of annexing him. Then, indeed, you'd want to take the decision and then set the Pope independent as soon as possible.

IoannesBarbarus (talk) 07:02, 24 June 2017 (CEST)

Thanks much for checking and bringing these up. This is the first time I've contributed to a Wiki, so I feel a little trepidatious.
1. I looked again, and I think you're right. The event itself checks for "is part of the HRE", and I think I got tripped up looking back and forth between that and the Rein in Northern Italy decision information. I do think it's interesting that by this interpretation, having any of the 8 provinces get taken by another member (whether in Italy or not, but say a blobbing Florence) means you must fight them to take it. Seems outside the intent of the fluff text to me, but I agree that the event says so.
2. Taking it last allows you to avoid most of the penalties. If you take it last you can enact the decision immediately, not bother to core it, or add it to the HRE manually, and still have neither of the effects apply since you give it back right away via the Papal State event.
If instead you annex it before last, the event to give it back fires before you've enacted Rein In or cored & added it to the HRE, so you must say no, and the event will never fire again, so you're stuck with Occupation unless you manually give the province to someone else. That means either coring it to add to the HRE (thus wasting the Admin points) or keeping the Occupation penalty plus Overextension until you grab the last pieces for Rein In and then either way dealing with the penalties for getting rid of a province.
If you vassalize, you get Subjugation and must keep it for at minimum the amount of time it takes to annex diplomatically (which is slower because of reduced DiploRep), regardless of when you take the last pieces, unless you break vassalization early (which is basically never a good idea due to -25 Prestige and -200 opinion). So it's vassalization that actually doesn't matter as much if it's last (though the entire process needs to be finished last, I'll agree), at least as I understand it.
This all seems a little long-winded, but I'll see if I can tweak the section a little to hint at the reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reignspike (talk) 15:29, 24 June 2017‎

[Unindented] Do remember to sign your comments with ~~~~. ~ SolSys (talk) 15:37, 24 June 2017 (CEST)

Oh, neat. I didn't see that feature. Thanks!
Reignspike (talk) 15:42, 24 June 2017 (CEST)
Re. #2 - I was working on the mistaken idea that you can add owned non-core provinces to the HRE, but no, you have to core them first, so your reasoning about Rome does make sense. Likewise I wasn't sure about how bad the penalties for breaking vassalization are. The text as it stands now seems great to me. IoannesBarbarus (talk) 02:02, 25 June 2017 (CEST)
Great. Thanks again for helping make sure it's useful. Separate question: is there an etiquette for cleaning up or removing talk sections? Since the above is resolved, it probably doesn't need to hang around and is kind of a clutter. But I don't want to just delete it if we want to save it for some reason. Reignspike (talk) 08:22, 25 June 2017 (CEST)
I don't know myself what the procedure is there. IoannesBarbarus (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2017 (CEST)
Talk pages should be left as is -- others may stumble upon the same raised issues so the above may be helpful to them. New issues can/will be opened under a new section. ~ SolSys (talk) 10:05, 26 June 2017 (CEST)
OK, thanks. Reignspike (talk) 14:33, 26 June 2017 (CEST)