Talk:Trade goods

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Trade good spawn[edit source]

This section needs to be updated to include glass/paper spawn, i think? Was playing migrating natives in SA and pushing dev to 22 (for cloth) everywhere, and i noticed they were spawning in the provinces that were pushed to 22 dev?

Σ[edit source]

supply % = Σ( province Goods Produced of the good * supply scale for the good ) * 1% demand % = Σ( Π( province demand modifiers ) * province base tax * 0.1 ) * 1%

Are we sure that using mathematical symbols like Σ and Π is a good idea?--General Baker Great Britain.png (Talk | Contribs) 19:52, 8 October 2013 (CEST)

I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it. I guess maybe "total product of all demand modifiers"? user:docfrance
Put it this way: I have no idea what Π means. With Σ, there was nothing wrong with sum of (...) --General Baker Great Britain.png (Talk | Contribs) 01:55, 9 October 2013 (CEST)
I mean, I get what you're thinking, and ideally it'd be best way to write things, but not everyone is knol'd up math-wise.--General Baker Great Britain.png (Talk | Contribs) 01:56, 9 October 2013 (CEST)
Π is the same as Σ, except it's multiplying everything together instead of adding. Not a big deal if you want to change it to something else. user:docfrance

Demand[edit source]

The comment in prices.txt is wrong. Total owned base tax in 1444 is 4087, so if the comment were correct, the demand for Gold (which has no modifiers) would be 408.7%. Instead it is 101.1% Furthermore, my testing indicates Goods Produced affects demand. (I believe provinces with revolt risk and/or intolerance are what's keeping this from achieving the ~104% one would expect from the base tax bonus.) --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 06:01, 10 October 2013 (CEST)

Interesting, I had no idea. That will need more testing to figure out the exact factor, but I have a hunch that it's just goods produced instead of base tax. user:docfrance
Testing confirms no normalization by number of provinces. Setting demand to x1000 in the player's capital and x0 elsewhere results in global demand being Goods Produced * 0.1%. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 08:17, 10 October 2013 (CEST)

I don't think some of the conclusions drawn are correct. Increasing a province's Goods Produced (GP) only increases demand by a tiny amount, while increasing supply by significantly more. Let's say that a country has ten provinces with base tax 1 all producing fish (so it's producing 10*1.01 = 10.1 units and generating 10.1% supply). Let's also ignore province demand modifiers and say that supply and demand are currently both 100%, so the price of fish is 2. If the country builds workshops in all its provinces, GP will increase to 12.1 units, an increase of 2. Global supply will thus increase from 100% to 102%. Demand for fish, on the other hand, would only increase from 100% to 100.2%, so the price of fish will go down. Therefore a uniform increase in GP will in fact cause prices to change. The price of fish will decrease and the prices of all other goods will increase by a very slight amount.user:docfrance

Actually, on second thought, there's a better way of looking at this. Goods Produced is actually Population. Each unit of population supplies (supply ratio) units of the province's goods, and demands (0.1*demand modifiers) units of each good in the world. An increase in population will increase both supply and demand for a specific good, but the increase in supply will be higher than the increase in demand, unless (good's demand modifiers ÷ good's supply ratio) is 10 or greater (which, just by eyeballing, is impossible in the unmodded game). The conclusions currently on the page are based on the premise that an increase in population (GP) results in an equal increase in both supply and demand, which is false. user:docfrance
I suppose I was unclear---by a "uniform increase in production" I mean in relation to global production of goods, not the nation's production of goods. If a country's production changed so that global production of every good (not just a single good e.g. Fish) was increased by 10%, all the prices would remain the same. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2013 (CEST)
Same thing happens in that case though. Let's say a country has 10 provinces producing fish and 10 producing wine, each province has one base tax so the country is producing 10.1 units of fish and 10.1 units of wine. Same assumptions as the previous example. The country builds workshops in every province, so now it's producing 12.1 units of fish and wine. Supply increases to 102% and demand increases to 100.2%. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that when GP goes up, supply increases more than demand (even though both are increased) and thus prices go down. user:docfrance
This example is incomplete. What does the rest of the world look like? Where did the base 100% demand come from? The "%" displayed is a misnomer---"100%" supply isn't actually 100% of any meaningful quantity. It would have been clearer if the game said 100 units of supply, which is closer to what's actually going on. Starting at 100% supply means that exactly 100 units of that good are being produced globally. Starting at 100% demand means that the global production of all goods is exactly 1000 (if modifiers are not involved). So there must be 800 units of other goods whose global production was not increased, so this is not a uniform increase in production of goods in the sense that I'm talking about. Furthermore, demand increases not to 100.2%, but 100.4%, since the total production of all goods increased by 4: you added two units of fish, and two units of wine. Now, if there were 10 trade goods each with 100 units of supply at the start, and the country increased production of all of them by 2 units each, then the supply of each would go to 102%... but global production of all goods would increase by 20 units, resulting in a demand of 102% as well. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 20:59, 16 October 2013 (CEST)
I think I'm following you. If every province in the world gets a workshop instantly, assuming demand modifiers don't change, then supply delta (Δsupply) of each good will be (0.2 * number of provinces producing each good * that good's supply ratio), while the demand delta (Δdemand) for each good will be (0.2 * 0.1 * number of provinces in the world). In order for prices to remain the same for every good, the ratio of demand:supply must equal the ratio of Δdemand:Δsupply. With a little algebraic manipulation we come to the conclusion that if a good's demand:supply ratio is equal to (0.1 * #provinces in the world) ÷ (#provinces producing that good * that good's supply ratio), then increasing all goods produced by the same amount in each province in the world will not result in a price change for that good. I'll concede that this situation is hypothetically possible, I highly doubt that it's at all probable. So the statement we're discussing is technically correct in certain situations but also not very relevant or helpful to the player. user:docfrance
It's a bit more flexible than that---you just have to increase the global production of each good by the same proportion, no matter where the goods are actually produced. It's still true that given that some trade goods mostly or only appear on certain continents, a single country may only be able to make this happen unilaterally if it's a multi-continent-spanning empire, but I think it still provides a useful point of comparison opposite the single-good case. Much like e.g. 100 Naval Tradition or 0 Religious Unity is rare, but it's still useful to know the effects of it so you can interpolate the effect at an intermediate value. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 03:57, 17 October 2013 (CEST)
What useful information can you possibly extrapolate from an extreme outlier case where increase GP doesn't affect prices? user:docfrance
That as you get closer to that case the outcome will likewise get closer to that case's outcome. That diversifying increases in production will dampen the effect on prices, and under which conditions that dampening is most complete. --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 05:38, 17 October 2013 (CEST)

new trade good - cocoa[edit source]

1.4 patch includes a new resource cocoa

Efects in trade[edit source]

I want to write in the wiki the effects of trading each goods, can everyone write every effect for goods they know.

For example chinaware is +5 legitimacy per year

anyone knows more??

All of these are listed in the section found here --John69Doe (talk) 18:06, 27 February 2014 (CET)

Gold: who gets 40:1 income and who gets 1:1?[edit source]

The section for gold says "it is converted directly into ducats at the rate of 40 ducats per year per unit produced (except for New World nations, which convert gold to cash at only a 1:1 rate)." But what is meant by "New World nations"? Is this nations in one of the three New World tech groups? And if so, does Westernising a New World nation mean that gold will switch to producing 40 ducats per year per unit produced? I feel the entry is currently unclear on this point, and I myself don't know the answer. 23:11, 29 June 2014 (CEST)

In my current Aztecs game I've noticed that converting to Catholicism made me start getting gold income at 40:1 rather than 1:1. This seems to imply that the rate is tied to religion, so I've edited the article to reflect this. 01:28, 25 July 2014 (CEST)

Demand from stability[edit source]

Is this description true? In 00_prices.txt,

   modifier = {
   	factor = 0.9
   	owner = { NOT = { stability = 1 } } (*1)
   modifier = {
   	factor = 0.9
   	owner = { NOT = { stability = 2 } } (*2)
   modifier = {
   	factor = 0.9
   	owner = { NOT = { stability = 3 } } (*3)
   modifier = {
   	factor = 1.1
   	owner = { stability = 1 } (*4)
   modifier = {
   	factor = 1.1
   	owner = { stability = 2 } (*5)
   modifier = {
   	factor = 1.1
   	owner = { stability = 3 } (*6)

means as follows:

Stability 0.9 (*1) 0.9 (*2) 0.9 (*3) 1.1 (*4) 1.1 (*5) 1.1 (*6) Total
3 1.331
2 1.089
1 0.891
0 0.729
-1 0.729
-2 0.729
-3 0.729
Hmm. You're right. Looks like a bug though, which should also be reported. I'm pretty sure the NOT bits are supposed to only affect negative stability. I've rolled back my edit. ~ Meneth (talk) 18:05, 29 September 2014 (CEST)
I've made a bug report about it now. ~ Meneth (talk) 18:12, 29 September 2014 (CEST)
Oops... it should obviously have been 0, -1 and -2 with not. Sucks that nobody noticed it earlier, but now supply/demand is removed anyway so it doesn't matter anymore. 21:06, 26 October 2014 (CET)

New Price Change Events[edit source]

Attempted to put in the data about price changes of Trade Goods (from PriceChanges.txt). Seems useful when assessing province value/whether to increase production to know what will or might happen to the trade good price later in the game. This was actually difficult to make into a useful table because the event trigger conditions are quite complex and I'm not altogether happy with the result. Someone with more wiki skills than me is welcome to reorganize, move, delete, whatever. Just trying to get some info up. Tjayharvey (talk) 02:48, 4 November 2014 (CET)

Are they multiplicitve or additive? Christopholes (talk) 00:00, 8 November 2014 (CET)
With New Draperies and Uniform Regulations both in effect (easy to test with a late start date), Cloth prices are 5.6. This is 40% above the base price of 4.0. Since New Draperies is 25% and Uniform Regulations is 15%, that strongly suggests that the modifiers are additive and then multiplied by the trade good base price. Tjayharvey (talk) 19:24, 9 November 2014 (CET)

What is up with whaile_oil?[edit source] 7:45 Why this resource isn't listed here? -- 18:27, 1 December 2014 (CET)

It doesn't exist in the unmodified game. There's no whale_oil in 00_tradegoods.txt. ~ Meneth (talk) 18:30, 1 December 2014 (CET)

Question for Meneth on Auto Generated Tables[edit source]

I think the tables currently in the price events section on this page are hard coded. Can you verify? If so, it's probably better to remove them and just link people off to the new Price_Change_events page which is auto-generated by scripts, it's more likely to be up to date. I've gone ahead and rewritten the intro and added the link to Price_Change_events. Your choice on removing the tables already in page.--Trimble (talk) 00:51, 14 July 2015 (CEST)

AFAIK the table is manually created. It's quite a bit more handy than the generated version at price change events, so is preferable. Especially as events don't tend to get changed all that often. ~ Meneth (talk) 01:31, 14 July 2015 (CEST)

Trade goods in colonies[edit source]

Colony is size 500 and still has no trade good X0.5

Anyone knows what is the reaseaon for this line? If it applies to all the trading goods it seems pointless. PuchaczTrado (talk) 10:04, 21 July 2015 (CEST)

It's an obvious trigger condition of these events that the colony has no trade good. I removed 'and has no trade good' from all events. – Lillebror (talk) 10:54, 21 July 2015 (CEST)
Where are the events for tropical wood and dyes? I can't find them in 1.12 TradeGoods.txt. Do they no longer apply? Puchacz (talk) 19:54, 18 August 2015 (CEST)
I can't see them in 1.12, they may be back in 1.13 but I don't have the beta installed. They may no longer apply. Dauth (talk) 20:09, 18 August 2015 (CEST)
There are none in 1.13 as well as 1.11. But I can see Tropical Wood spawned in Indonesian colony of my 1.11 game. Guess they must be somwehere else... Puchacz (talk) 21:29, 18 August 2015 (CEST)
The events for tropical wood and dyes are located in /Europa Universalis IV/events/AoWTradeGoods.txt. – Lillebror (talk) 22:56, 18 August 2015 (CEST)
Indeed, thank you! Puchacz (talk) 08:30, 19 August 2015 (CEST)

Last set of changes need to be reverted[edit source]

Page needs to be reverted back to changes as of 21:56, 17 August 2015 Revision. Most of Kongzheng edits are incorrect regarding flat vs percentage modifiers. --Trimble (talk) 07:51, 24 August 2015 (CEST)

Done. But the section need copy edit - there is doubled content. – Lillebror (talk) 08:08, 24 August 2015 (CEST)

Gold Depletion Chance formula[edit source]

The data is as follow:

Production level Depletion Chance
2 0.01%
3 0.04%
4 0.07%
5 0.12%
6 0.17%
7 0.24%
8 0.31%
9 0.40%

In the defines.lua it states that the depletion chance is 0.01 per production above threshold. Zraith (talk) 06:37, 8 April 2016 (CEST)

In the computation of gold income from a province with certain production level over given time period using calculus the gold produced after the depletion occurs seems to be ignored as well as further halving in production. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:16, 8 January 2017‎ (CET)

Uploading an Image[edit source]

I made a map of all the trade goods at the 1444 start, but I have no idea how to upload it. Every time I try I get a message saying that I need to be logged in to upload an image, but I'm already logged in. Could anyone give me some help/advice? --Sonikah (talk) 19:19, 9 October 2016 (CEST)

You should be able to now; in order to deter vandalism, users must first make an edit of some sort before they can upload files. ~ Meneth (talk) 11:11, 10 October 2016 (CEST)

Multiple math parsing errors[edit source]

I can't fix them right now, but mainly on the gold depletion part there is a lot of red text that needs fixing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:33, 21 October 2016‎ (CEST

The 'red text' should be gone now. – Lillebror (talk) 19:04, 21 October 2016 (CEST)

That gold calculation is completely wrong[edit source]

I did it right over there - — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:40, 28 June 2017‎ (CEST)

Trade good price adjusted by events[edit source]

I think the column "Adjusted by Events" in the trade goods table which was removed by this edit was useful, because sorting by that column gave an easier overview about which trade goods are good in the later game. What was the reason for removing it? I also like the new style of the table, so just undoing the edit is not a good idea either. --Grotaclas (talk) 15:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

For me this column did not add value. The event times are very diffrent, some changes are limited in time, the price changes are relative small ... – Lillebror (talk) 18:25, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Grotacalas that the old, now removed column was very useful, if imperfect. While temporary events should be ignored, it would be useful to have a column of "1821 value", adding up all of the multipliers that are not temporary. This is primarily useful for sorting and comparison, to help players prioritize which trade goods to invest in long-term.--Dbellisario (talk) 13:40, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
why did you revert all the changes to the table instead of adding back the column? --Grotaclas (talk) 13:47, 26 June 2021 (UTC)