Talk:Technology

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Sub-Saharan group[edit]

I'm not entirely sure how this Talk thing works but I noticed there is no entry for the Sub-Saharan Techgroup.

Copy the code for one of the other groups and edit it to apply properly for the sub-Saharan group. ~ Meneth (talk) 19:38, 2 August 2013 (CEST)

Table styles[edit]

Thoughts? Not bothered either way, just thought I'd gather some opinions on the use of class="mildtable" for bulky full-width tables.--General Baker Great Britain.png (Talk | Contribs) 22:31, 26 September 2013 (CEST)

I'm neutral. I'll await further opinions. ~ Meneth (talk) 22:32, 26 September 2013 (CEST)

Ahead of Time Penalty[edit]

The ahead of time penalty is not reduced by monarch power, I'm pretty sure this is outdated information. Also, as an interesting note, the "optimal year" in the game files is actually the ahead of time penalty for researching the NEXT tech level. Researching admin level 4 in 1444 has no penalty because its optimal year is actually listed in the clause for admin level 3 (1440). user:docfrance

you are missing country special modifiers that lower tech as-well

for example ottomans have two that lower tech by 10%

This is right about Ahead of Time Penalty. Moyang (talk) 11:49, 27 March 2015 (CET)

Military Technology[edit]

Artillery units are missing.

The table of military technology isn’t complete. Feel free to finish it. Please sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). – Lillebror (talk) 18:56, 18 June 2014 (CEST)

Cumulative technology effects[edit]

The two table at the end of the page are named “Cumultative … effects to …”. This means the table displays the bonuses a country gets at a certain technology level. I think this is no longer true after todays changes. – Lillebror (talk) 11:03, 6 October 2014 (CEST)

Cumulative means that it sums up all improvements up to this point, (or in the case of combat width, the base + improvements). So the name appears to be correct. ~ Meneth (talk) 11:05, 6 October 2014 (CEST)
How can I distinguish (now) whether a value is already summed with the base( or other modifiers) or not? The value for combat width is also modified by the terrain. Thus, the displayed value is correct only in certain cases.
This page deals with technology. The base values and other modifiers should better be only on the pages where the effects are discussed. – Lillebror (talk) 11:33, 6 October 2014 (CEST)
I'm relatively sure the only one that's summed with the base is combat width, since for combat width there's only two modifiers: base and tech (and terrain, but that's multiplied with base+tech). ~ Meneth (talk) 11:35, 6 October 2014 (CEST)
Or, military tactics is also summed with the base, but that's another case where the only modifiers are base+tech. ~ Meneth (talk) 11:36, 6 October 2014 (CEST)

Expand?[edit]

I'm confused. The article is tagged with the need to expand on it, but I don't know what else that need to be added. Could someone clarify? --Grifen88 (talk) 15:32, 15 December 2014 (CET)

Looks like it was just a holdover from back when the article wasn't so complete. Removed it now. ~ Meneth (talk) 15:50, 15 December 2014 (CET)

tech cost increase over time[edit]

It isn't linear. I made a table of increase over time tech cost. Tech levels are not the current, but the ones you upgrade to (since the cost apples to them).

optimal year (tech level) 1420 (2) 1440 (3) 1453 (4) 1466 (5) 1479 (6) 1492 (7) 1505 (8) 1518 (9) 1531 (10) 1544 (11) 1557 (12) 1570 (13) 1583 (14) 1596 (15) 1609 (16) 1622 (17) 1635 (18) 1648 (19) 1661 (20) 1674 (21) 1687 (22) 1700 (23) 1715 (24) 1730 (25) 1745 (26) 1760 (27) 1775 (28) 1790 (29) 1805 (30) 1820 (31) 1835 (32)
increase over time -4.2 -1,8 -0,3 0,6 1,7 2,7 3,8 4,8 5,8 6,9 7,9 8,9 10 11 12 13,1 14,1 15,1 16,2 17,2 18,3 19,3 20,3 21,5 22,7 23,9 25,10 26,3 27,5 28,7 29,9

I couldn't find a country starting with 0 tech, so idk what is it for lvl 0->1.

Gendalf (talk) 07:16, 13 May 2015 (CEST)

I think this section is correct. The increase depends not on the next technology level or its optimal year.
To write it in a formula is a little bit complicated. I think you have to round down twice(to three decimal places).
Round down X to three decimal places ().
where the 0.3 is TECH_TIME_COST out of defines.lua.
Round down Y to three decimal places ().
– Lillebror (talk) 09:29, 13 May 2015 (CEST)

Optimal Year = Optimal Year - 13[edit]

I propose changing the column "Optimal Year" to reflect the year in which it can be researched without an "Ahead of time" penalty for the first time. This should just be a -13 years for all techs I think. Yes, the adm.txt file contains the currently listed "optimal year" values, but they are clearly treated as "-13" by the game. When talking about a technology I am interested in the year it becomes researchable without a penalty and not "the year it becomes researchable without a penalty + 13". Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flipp (Talk) 15:33, 19 June 2015‎

As far as I can tell there's no hidden modifier as such. I suspect it simply uses the current tech's optimal year. So when going from tech 3 to tech 4, the optimal year isn't tech 4's 1453, but tech 3's 1440. A note about that would make sense. ~ Meneth (talk) 16:19, 19 June 2015 (CEST)
Example:
France starts 1444 with a technology level 3. Level 3 has an “optimal year” of 1440. As 1444 is later than 1440 - France is not “ahead of time”.
Now France researches level 4, still 1444. Level 4 has an “optimal year” of 1453. As 1444 is before 1453 - France is “ahead of time” - 9 years (1453-1444). The “ahead of time” penalty is thus 90%.
The 2 years later - 1446 - still with technology level 4. France is “ahead of time” - 7 years (1453-1446). The “ahead of time” penalty is thus 70%.
If you want to research a technology without “ahead of time” penalty you can do this the earliest on the first day of the "optimal year" of the technology level you want to research. – Lillebror (talk) 16:42, 19 June 2015 (CEST)
I checked in-game though; no ahead of time penalty to research level 4, presumably since the optimal year for level 3 is before 1444. ~ Meneth (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2015 (CEST)
Good point, the effect is still the same: Looking at a tech tree I am most likely interested in "When can I research this technology without having to pay a penalty/at what point does having this technology stop giving me the ahead of time bonus?" The answer to both is "the optimal year of [technology-1]" which I would argue should be reflected in the table. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flipp (Talk) 16:50, 19 June 2015 (CEST)
Sorry, my last sentence was wrong.
If you want to research a new technology without “ahead of time” penalty you can do this the earliest on the first day of the "optimal year" of your current technology.
We should perhaps replace “optimal year” by just "year". – Lillebror (talk) 19:23, 19 June 2015 (CEST)
But how would changing "optimal year" to "year" make what is actually going on any more obvious? I see two options: EITHER there is an explanation of how the year in which you can first research a technology without a malus is the "optimal year" value of the previous technology OR we change the value of the "optimal year" for all technologies to be that of its previous technology. The second option is what you would expect when you look at the table the first time, so I am strongly in favor of that. Flipp (talk) 19:43, 19 June 2015 (CEST)
As you know, the value comes out of the game files. The “increase over time” of the technology cost also depends on the “optimal year” of the current technology. So changing the table is not really an otion for me. – Lillebror (talk) 20:12, 19 June 2015 (CEST)
I hadn't realized the connection to "Increase over time", I always assumed it was an increase in technology cost that was based on the current year. I guess you never stop learning. I can see how this would make changing the values in the table a bad idea. Maybe putting in a big "disclaimer" like thingie at the top of each table along the lines of "OPTIMAL YEAR APPLIES TO THE NEXT TECHNOLOGY FOR TECH COST" is an option? I also think addubg the values for "Increase over time" as its own column into the table could be a good idea (a bit of a wiki noob, is that easily possible?). On top of that, it would be great if the description column could be collapsable, I think a lot of people are mainly interested in which tech gives what effects and not the "lore" so to speak. On a related note, I updated Adm/Dip technologies for 1.12.2, would be great if someone could double check them. Military looks to be a pain in the *** with the different units, not sure when I will find the motivation to do that.Flipp (talk) 20:32, 19 June 2015 (CEST)

(Unindenting) Yes, there should definitely be a note about which number the ahead of time penalty actually uses. ~ Meneth (talk) 21:58, 19 June 2015 (CEST)

Hmm. Reading the page the increase over time also uses the current level, not the upcoming one. Since both use the current, it probably does make sense to shift them all down by one. ~ Meneth (talk) 22:02, 19 June 2015 (CEST)

@Flipp: I have checked the tables for adm/dip technologies and updated the one for mil technologies. – Lillebror (talk) 17:52, 20 June 2015 (CEST)
Perhaps we can add an explanation about the optimal time to research the next technology level in the Ahead of time penalty and bonus section right above the technology tables. – Lillebror (talk) 18:11, 20 June 2015 (CEST)

What about splitting Year into two columns since they are used for two different things?

1. Optimal Year (for ahead of time bonus)
This would keep the current years in the table which match the years in game files (adm.txt, dip.txt, & mil.txt). If you get tech X prior to this year, you will get the ahead of time tech bonus.
Using previous example, the Optimal Year for tech 4 is 1453. If you get tech 4 before 1453, you get the bonus. If you get tech 5 before 1466, you get the bonus.
2. Earliest Year (for MP cost penalty)
This column would track the earliest you could get a tech without penalty. This column would have the optimal year of the previous tech level.
Using previous example, the Earliest Year for tech 5 is 1453. If you get tech 5 before 1453, you pay a penalty of 10% additional MP per year earlier than 1453.

--Cornbread (talk) 18:23, 28 August 2015 (CEST)

Earliest year is dependent on the tech group, remember non-western nations can store more MP. I think this is something that is going to be more trouble than its worth and am currently unconvinced. Dauth (talk) 15:40, 30 August 2015 (CEST)
@Dauth- Are you sure that's true? I just tested on a Chinese tech group country and the years for the ahead bonus and the ahead of time penalty were the same as for western tech countries. I think the different tech groups only affect the cost of a tech, not when it was discovered for bonuses/penalties. --Csgdzjtpxj (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2015 (CEST) (formerly Cornbread before account merge)
Then if you're with a nation who can store more than 999 MP, then they can reach the higher tech level faster than a western country, yes its unlikely but its possible. Think of a case where a the ahead of time penalty is from 400 to 1000, rather artificial I know but the case stands. A western nation could not unlock until the cost reduced with time but a lower tech nation, which can store more MP, theoretically could. Unless you're willing to do all calculations, or present sound evidence against this issue, I will remain unconvinced.Dauth (talk) 18:59, 8 September 2015 (CEST)
I don't understand your objection. I ran the test on a Chinese tech country and saw this worked the same as for western tech countries. Higher MP storage for non-western technology groups has nothing to do the year at which you will earn a bonus for being early or pay a higher tech cost for being ahead of time. For example, the optimal year for tech 5 is 1466. Regardless of your technology group, you will earn the associated bonus if you reach tech 5 before 1466. If you try to advance to tech level 5 before 1453, you will pay a penalty. The cost of any tech level will vary due to your technology group and how much earlier than the optimal year you acquire it. But this doesn't affect the date at which the early penalty itself ceases.
If your objection is that it seems inconceivable that a non-western country could obtain a tech sooner than a western one, well, I've never seen anything to suggest this. Though it's unlikely since a non-western tech country has to build up a lot more MP in the same amount of time to keep up with a western tech country. I've only seen a tech cost penalty. I've never seen the ahead-of-time penalty work differently for non-western countries. Are you aware of anything to the contrary that suggests a different mechanic? It should be pretty easy to test this out.
The calculations were very simple- It took me a few minutes to run them to identify a year in game where it could be validated.
The base cost of any tech is 600. Tech 5 has a .6% "increase over time" addition. So, without any other idea bonuses or other modifiers, the stock cost for a western tech country is in 1453 600*(1+.006)= 603.6 MP. A western tech country can store 999 MP.
Future years with a 10% additional ahead of time penalty per year yields:
1452 600*(1+.006 +.1)= 603.6 MP
1451 600*(1+.006 +.2)= 663.6 MP
1450 600*(1+.006 +.3)= 723.6 MP
1449 600*(1+.006 +.4)= 783.6 MP
1448 600*(1+.006 +.5)= 843.6 MP
1447 600*(1+.006 +.6)= 903.6 MP
1446 600*(1+.006 +.7)= 1023.6 MP This is more than the 999MP that can be stored.
A Chinese tech country has a 60% tech cost penalty so tech 5 in 1453 would cost: 600 * (1+.006 + .6) = 963.6 MP. A Chinese tech country can store 1598 MP.
Future years with a 10% penalty per year yields:
1452 600*(1+.006 +.6 +.1)= 1023.6 MP
1451 600*(1+.006 +.6 +.2)= 1083.6 MP
1450 600*(1+.006 +.6 +.3)= 1143.6 MP
1449 600*(1+.006 +.6 +.4)= 1203.6 MP
1448 600*(1+.006 +.6 +.5)= 1263.6 MP
1447 600*(1+.006 +.6 +.6)= 1323.6 MP
1446 600*(1+.006 +.6 +.7)= 1383.6 MP A Chinese Tech group could purchase a tech 7 years ahead, while a Western one couldn't.
So, to validate, I loaded up a game as Dai Viet for 1446. I looked up a console command on the wiki, added some ADM MP, and was able to get to ADM tech 5 in 1446- sooner than a western tech country could. Of course, a non-western country obtaining enough ADM to actually do this in-game without console commands is still highly unlikely.
Does this address your concerns or is there something else I am missing that warrants further investigation?

--Csgdzjtpxj (talk) 00:43, 9 September 2015 (CEST)

(Unindent), I'm not objecting to non-western nations getting first tech. For each tech level the earliest year is theoretically tech group dependent. I'm not sure how well this could be articulated on the wiki without making the page overly long. Its already one of the most detailed on the wiki. How about you show me an example of what you intend to add, a few lines of table and we go from there? Dauth (talk) 08:57, 9 September 2015 (CEST)

Sure- I took a stab at a first draft below. How does this look?
Since testing shows the mechanics work the same regardless of tech groups, I was thinking that we just add a single column for "Historical Year" to each of the three tech tables and change the existing year column to "Optimal Year." This way, this page would not get any longer. The previous section would also need to be updated so that it would be clear how the penalty and bonus map to the column titles in the tables(changes in italic bold).
BTW, I think I figured out our disconnect above. I was using "earliest year" to refer to the earliest year a tech could be obtained without penalty. This is the same regardless of tech group. I believe you were reading earliest year as the earliest year a country could obtain a tech, penalty or not. And this would vary by tech group due to the MP storage and cost differences. My test above showed both statements are true. The mechanic for penalties works the same for all tech groups. But different tech groups can discover techs at different years if acquisition of MP isn't a problem.
Ahead of time penalty and bonus
If the current game year is earlier than the historic discovery date of a technology, an ahead of time penalty of +10%[10] research cost per year ahead will be applied to current research efforts towards the next level in that technology type. If this ahead of time penalty raises the cost of a technology beyond the point storage cap (999 for the western tech group, higher for the others), then the technology cannot be researched at all in the current year. This sets a hard cap for technology progress, making it impossible to be more than about 7-10 years ahead of the set year.
While a nation has a technology that is ahead of the optimal discovery date, it will also receive an ahead of time bonus for that technology type:
-Administrative technologies will grant a +20% production efficiency bonus[11]
-Diplomatic technologies will grant a +20% trade efficiency bonus[12]
-Military technologies do not grant any additional bonus[13]
Level Technology Effect Historical Year Optimal Year Description
4 Temple Can now build temple 1440 1453 ...
5 National Ideas unlock first idea, +10% prod eff 1453 1466 ...
6 Workshop Can now build workshop 1466 1479 ...
--Csgdzjtpxj (talk) 15:51, 9 September 2015 (CEST)
You have shifted the year given in the game files by 1 technology. Is this done on purpose?
For me the historical date of discovery is given by the game file, thus for level 5 is 1466.
What is the earliest date to discover a new technology without penalty? That's the historical discovery date of my current technology.
I'm ahead of time if the historical discovery date of my current technology is greater than the current game date.
Do we really need two columns for this fact? – Lillebror (talk) 17:23, 9 September 2015 (CEST)
I'm with Lillebror here, we were talking cross purposes however with this new table there's no new information. It would appear that the optimal year of tech level n is the same as the historical year of tech n+1. Rebuilding the tables for this single line of information is a lot of work. Dauth (talk) 18:27, 9 September 2015 (CEST)
@Lillebror- It is shifted by one tech on purpose. The year in the files references the year before which you get a bonus, not the year before which you get a penalty. For example, tech 5 has 1466 listed. If you get tech 5 earlier than 1466, you get a bonus for ahead of time. You don't get an ahead of time penalty for research unless you get tech 5 before 1453 which is the year listed in the file for tech 4.
@Dauth- But that's not what the Wiki currently says. There's no reference to n+1. The Technology page states:
If the current game year is earlier than the historic discovery date of a technology, an ahead of time penalty of +10%[10] research cost per year ahead will be applied to current research efforts towards the next level in that technology type
@Dauth- I also think you have the dates reversed. The current listed date listed in the game file and on the wiki is the date at which prior to, you get a bonus: i.e. optimal. The ahead of time penalty year would be the year listed for the n-1 tech.
I am suggesting calling out the difference between the optimal year (for bonuses) and the historical year (for penalties) in the tables. An alternative to updating the table would be to change the above line to reference the historical discovery date of the previous tech (n-1) for penalties and the historical date of the current tech (n) for bonuses. Visually, I lean toward the new column as easier to use. But either option corrects the current inaccuracy. --Csgdzjtpxj (talk) 20:09, 9 September 2015 (CEST)
I'm really beginning to lose this in swarm of numbers. Give me a 1 line example of what is wrong and what you intend to show by fixing. I see bonus and penalty without clear definition. For Admin level 5 there appear to be two pieces of information. What are they? Dauth (talk) 23:17, 9 September 2015 (CEST)
The calculations for ‘ahead of time bonus’, ‘ahead of time penalty’ and the ‘increase over time’ of technology cost are based on the year - given in the game files - of the current technology.
Ahead of time bonus
You get the bonus if the year of your current technology is greater than the game date.
Ahead of time penalty
The technology cost is increased if the year of your current technology is greater than the game date.
– Lillebror (talk) 00:08, 10 September 2015 (CEST)
Lillebror defines the calculations succinctly in the previous comment. Sticking with Tech 5, the existing table and the technology game file list a year of 1466. If you have tech 5 and the current year is 1460, then 1466 > 1460, so you get the bonus. The wiki currently says "While a nation has a technology that is ahead of time, it will also receive an ahead of time bonus for that technology type." This is correct based on the existing table which lists tech 5 as 1466. All three tables are correct for showing when you will obtain the bonus for achieving a tech early- i.e. before the listed year in the table.
Now, let's look at the ahead of time penalty for tech 5. Let's say you are currently at tech 4 and looking to advance to tech 5 and the year is 1452. According to the tech file and the existing table, the year of your current technology, tech 4, is 1453. Since it is 1452, the year of your current technology, 1453, is greater than the current year, 1452, so you would have to pay an "ahead of time" penalty for advancing to tech 5. However, the wiki states something different: "If the current game year is earlier than the historic discovery date of a technology, an ahead of time penalty of +10%[10] research cost per year ahead will be applied to current research." There is no mention of the current technology. So, we can either change the table to reference both bonus and penalty requirements in separate columns or opt for my second proposed option of correcting this language to clarify that the penalty is determined by the year of the current tech, not the one you are trying to research. A proposed corrected statement could read "If the current game year is earlier than the historic discovery date of the current technology level, an ahead of time penalty of +10%[10] research cost per year ahead will be applied to current research toward the next technology level."
While fewer changes are needed with the second option, I still contend it would be clearer to update the table and adjust the definition language appropriately. The three of us, who all appear to have a good understanding of the game mechanics, have had difficulty nailing down this down in a lengthy discussion- to the point of some confusion above about the actual mechanics. Since this table is more likely of use to less experienced players and adding a column does not lengthen the page at all, I still believe the table change would be more valuable. If concern about effort becomes the deciding factor, I would offer to complete the first draft- it shouldn't take more than 15 minutes. --Csgdzjtpxj (talk) 01:42, 10 September 2015 (CEST)
OK I finally understand what is going on, to be quite honest the issue isn't the wiki, its a poor naming choice in the game itself. These should be named something more sensible. I suggest that we give clear examples in the text above the tech level table and also give a more understandable name, perhaps even putting in a suggestion in the forums. I don't think we need to alter the table contents so instead would change to the following. Since both effects are for countries which are ahead of the technology curve they should instead be put into a simple table with a short description above.

Being ahead of the prescribed technology level gives both a bonus and a penalty, called ahead of time bonus and ahead of time penalty in game.

Technology Bonus Penalty
ADM +20% production efficiency bonus +10% ADM technology cost per year ahead of proscribed curve
DIP +20% trade efficiency bonus +10% DIP technology cost per year ahead of proscribed curve
MIL No bonus +10% MIL technology cost per year ahead of proscribed curve
This is crude and could be made nicer but contains all the same information without the confusing for the reader need for two year columns in the table. Dauth (talk) 09:22, 10 September 2015 (CEST)
Sorry. If talking about a technology in relation to the current game date and the next technology, then it's obvious to me that this technology is the current technology.
I have separated the definition for ahead of time from the bonus and penalty effects. Perhaps this will bring more clarity. – Lillebror (talk) 09:47, 10 September 2015 (CEST)
@Lillebror- I like the way you tied them together. The new language looks good. --Csgdzjtpxj (talk) 15:46, 10 September 2015 (CEST)
@Csgdzjtpxj: Thanks. Thanks for the discussion. – Lillebror (talk) 08:04, 11 September 2015 (CEST)

Fixed width tables[edit]

Why are there still fixed width tables around? 25% users are on mobile devices with widths of ~700-1000px. The software is smarter than a single number, let it make the decision. Dauth (talk) 23:17, 9 September 2015 (CEST)