Talk:Native council

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C - This article is considered a C-class article on the wiki quality scale

How much of this is only available with the COP dlc? It should be noted. Medibee Winged Hussars.jpg (Talk | Contribs) 13:46, 15 January 2014 (CET)

Initial observations[edit]

Played the Miami tribe and made some observations:

  • Reforming the government gives you the government type of the western neighbour. Norway which had one of the merchant types gave me that type, whilst waiting for the more advanced Englishmen gave me a monarchy instead(same as England). Not ruling out it can be random, but hovering over the 'reform government' button stated which of the neighbours were to be deemed the target country(highest sum of tech levels), I'm assuming it to be the most advanced one, drawing from memory England being a few levels more advanced than Norway.
  • The techs gained through reforming appear to be set up so that you get the western neighbours tech levels(all three types) minus 2 in respective category, resulting in you being 6 techs behind the western neighbour. For example: In my playthrough England had Gov 19 Dip 18 Mil 19, and I as Miami got 17 16 17. This unlocked more idea-slots (government tech level increase) which I could spend my stash of monarch points on(after reforming you still have the native techgroup, allowing a maximum of roughly 3500 points to be saved) in the process fully upgrading two and a half ideas. Game Balance-wise, this could be so that you can't insta-westernize, but no worry you'll be spending all points rebuilding your country(didn't know about building via ledger trick, but that is something that'll probably be fixed)

Buildings[edit]

The page needs a section on the native buildings. Once that's added it should be B-class, I think. ~ Meneth (talk) 16:11, 8 June 2014 (CEST)

Does Migration cause you to lose the buildings, or do they migrate with you? I would guess that you lose them, but this should me made explicit. 46.193.132.118 20:22, 24 September 2014 (CEST)

No "Native" tab in 1.17[edit]

Today I started a game as a North American native for the first time, and was very confused because I couldn't find a "Native" tab in the F1 interface with the native ideas and such; it took me a while to realize that the native ideas are now in the little pop-up thing similar to that for the HRE or the Papacy in the bottom-right next to the map. I'd like to update the article to reflect this change, but does anyone know what version it was changed? Philadelphus (talk) 01:19, 3 October 2016 (CEST)

May have been changed with patch 1.10 (El Dorado). Feel free to update the page. – Lillebror (talk) 08:51, 3 October 2016 (CEST)
Thanks. I've gone ahead and updated the page with some additional information based on testing with various tribal nations. —Philadelphus (talk) 04:21, 5 October 2016 (CEST)

Coverage of African tribal nations?[edit]

I see someone added a mention of African tribal nations to this page and was wondering if that should be removed, as the page nominally covers only nations with Native Council or Siberian Clan Council governments (which African nations do not have). Or, alternatively, the page could be expanded to cover all tribal governments, as the confusion is understandable given their names. Thought I'd ask here before reverting willy-nilly. Philadelphus (talk) 03:53, 8 March 2017 (CET)

I've reverted the edit. Right, the page is about the 'native mechanics' and migration. These mechanics are not used by countries with a tribal government. The designation 'tribal nation' is not used in the game. Therefore my first idea was to find a better name for the page. On the scenario setup their government form is called 'tribe' (, but that's not much better for the use here). Perhaps 'native council'? – Lillebror (talk) 09:01, 8 March 2017 (CET)
I agree, the name of the page is somewhat confusing right now. 'Native council' might be better, as the page specifically covers nations with one of the two Native Council government types (listed as 'Siberian Clan Council' in the scenario setup for the Siberian tribes). If you want to change the name I can go over the page and tweak the text to fit better (rather than talking about 'tribal nations' and such). I'll also go ahead and briefly note the requirements for reforming an actual tribal government in that section of the governments page, as I don't think it's specifically listed elsewhere and seems to be what that edit was trying to note. – Philadelphus (talk) 20:21, 8 March 2017 (CET)
Good, we go for it. – Lillebror (talk) 09:39, 9 March 2017 (CET)
I think that with the new Leviathan DLC Siberian and African tribal governments should be removed fro this page. It is already cluttered by the new complex mechanics so much that it would make sense to split it between nations that need to reform their religions (Nahuatl, Inti, Mayan) and Totemist/Pagan nations.

errors in the recent edits and suggestions for moving forward[edit]

I think some of the recent changes are incorrect:

  • there seems to be a confusion between native countries (which I think this page is about) and nahuatl, maya and inti countries to which these mechanics don't apply (they have to reform their religion which is described in Pagan_denominations#Mesoamerican_and_South_American_religions). Some of the nahuatl/maya/inti have Tribal governments, but I don't see any which have native as their government type.
  • the native countries in meso and south america (e.g Flag of Carib Carib or Flag of Chichimeca Chichimeca) seem to have the same mechanics as the north american natives, so the distinction between North American tribes and South american tribes is wrong.
  • I tested starting as a native without conquest of paradise, but with el dorado and the country wasn't primitive and was not able to use the tier 4 government reform Trading with Foreigners to reform their government. So I think the “or El Dorado.png El Dorado” is incorrect

And I have some suggestions for going forward with this page:

  • move the page to “Native government”, because the reform which was called “Native council” doesn't exist anymore
  • add all the new native government reforms (I might do that in the next few days, if I get around to automate it)

--Grotaclas (talk) 01:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Agree. – Lillebror (talk) 06:35, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree with the fact that the distinction between South and North America is outdated (notice how in the previous edit it was explicitly mentioned that some nations in South America followed the new native mechanics). The easier way to move forward however would not to change the title of this page but to fork it creating two pages. What was the "South America" section should be its own page (and talk about countries like Miskito and Tupinamba here). Also the Siberian Council wants to have its own page probably. As the page was structured before some confusion was unavoidable because the game does not see Nahuatl, Mayan and Inti as the same "type" of native as the North American tribes (or even their neighbour Chichimeca). Another option would be to change the names of the sections into the specific names of the native governments but that would create artificially a category that the game does not have and would suggest to the reader that there are common traits like not being able to embrace institutions until government reform, which is not true any longer for North American natives and other nations with their government. In about 4 hours I will try to restructure this page with two sections that use the government names (or possibly the government name and the religion) in order to make things clearer but I think that forking into two pages is the best way forward in order not to feed misconceptions that seem common in the community at the moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pickman89 (talk) 12:06, 9 May 2021‎ (CEST)
I'm sorry if I've made a mess of things. I was looking for how the inti nations work, and this page was what came up when searching how to reform south american natives. The opening line "Some South and Mesoamerican tribes have the same mechanics as North American ones but most do not have access the Government Reforms menu and instead have to reform their religion before they can reform their government." in the "South and Mesoamerican tribes" section lead me to believe this was a section about the Inti, Maya, and Nahuatl nations. The rest of the section does basically describe how those nations work when played owning El Dorado but not Conquest of Paradise, and roughly matches the description on the El Dorado page. --Jespoke (talk) 12:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
I made a mess of things first I guess, but really we need to split this page into two and drop the mentions of African and Siberian tribes. Siberian tribes cannot even migrate now so they really share no mechanical aspects with the New World. Speaking about that we should probably also remove the Native Ideas as they are rather rare now and so they are no longer very relevant.
You were the one who added the distinction between North and South America in the first place. Before yesterday this page didn't mention any difference. But I don't see why you would want a separate page for countries like Miskito and Tupinamba. I just tested Tupinamba and they can migrate, have tribal land, native buildings and can create federations. So I don't see any difference in mechanics which would justify their own page. But I agree that African tribes don't belong here at all and Siberian tribes don't belong here currently (I'm not sure if it is WAD that they can't migrate anymore, so this might change in the future). I suggested the renaming of the page, because I can't find the name “Native council” anywhere in the game. The government types mapmode shows the government type as “Native” (the siberians are shown as “Tribal”) and that's why I suggested “Native government” analogous to Tribal government. The ingame flavor text of the government is “Tribe”, so this would also be an option. A disclaimer on the top of the page that explains that this page is not about tribal countries and not about maya/inti/nahuatl would probably be useful. I agree with your other changes though and want to thank you for your work on the page, because it was much needed. --Grotaclas (talk) 16:54, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
As I said above I made a mess first by trying to split the discussion about the mechanics for Nahuatl & co. from the new NA "Tribes". As they display different mechanics it is difficult and confusing talking about two different mechanics in the same section so I tried splitting it into two sections but it is still a bit difficult to separate them and that's why I think two different pages could be better but I am not really sure. I think that the in-game flavor text is probably the best option for the name of the page... My biggest doubt is that we do not have a unique name for the nations that have Inti, Nahuatl and Mayan religions so I would not know what that page could be named.
before your change, there was no mentioning of Nahuatl & co on this page. Their reform mechanics are described in Pagan_denominations#Mesoamerican_and_South_American_religions and their government reforms are described in monarchy or tribal governments (depending on the country). I think no new page is needed for them. I added a hatnote to this page to hopefully point readers to the right place --Grotaclas (talk) 18:29, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
You're right, I was confused by the phrase "North and South American native tribes cannot embrace institutions or access the Government Reforms menu until they have reformed their governments." Which I conflated with reforming the religion (because that is tied to reforming the government) and I tried to separate the reference to South America there when it was meant to be a reference to nations like Tupinamba. Thanks for pointing it out. I removed the paragraph about Nahuatl&co. As it is the page now looks okay to me except for the references to Siberian and African tribes, for example I don't think that having El Dorado active affects African tribes at the moment. Thanks for ading the note, your patience, and all the input.