Talk:Idea groups

A - This article is considered an A-class article on the wiki quality scale

Added content

So... I added what ideas I was able to glean from various feeds and previews. There's a few more I know exist, but I couldn't definitively say where they fell on the track so I left them off for now (Scientific Revolution is in the Innovative track somewhere, for instance). Do we have any style we want to follow for this page? I left Espionage untouched (it shows), but even little things like "+1 Diplomats" or "Diplomats +1"; "+10% Infantry Combat Ability" or "Infantry Ability +10%" should probably be made uniform. In the areas where nothing had been entered before I formatted it exactly as I saw in the screenshot. PenguinTod (talk) 03:02, 25 June 2013 (CEST)

Nice work. So far there's no real standard for displaying such information. Once the game is out though, it should be simple enough to update it to correspond with how it is displayed in-game. ~ Meneth (talk) 03:05, 25 June 2013 (CEST)

Balance

Is it just me, or are ideas actually sort of bad for your country?

I have lost 5 stability due to my investing into the 'quality' idea, with the 'nobles are worried' random event... and I am like. nobles. look. i swear, if I could, id take every single point I have out of that idea and put it into aristocracy for you! Or just tech up normally with them, and use that idea slot for something else...

I have also gained a whole hellalotta inflation from my national bank... the whole damn reason I took that idea chain was for the 0.1 inflation reduction, but NOOooo... my banks gotta be all sucky and give me random events which make me gain 30 years worth per pop.

More detailed explanations

Can anyone who knows take the time with footnotes or whatever to explain what some of the less obvious modifiers actually do? Unjustified Demands at the end of the Diplomacy section for instance - nowhere in the game, in the manual or anywhere else is it explained what exactly -33% unjustified demands actually means. I've seen suggestions that it refers to the war score cost of everything EXCEPT whatever was used for the CB, but it would be nice to actually know for certain. 151.229.223.77 14:04, 30 August 2013 (CEST)'

Upload ideagroup icons

Sorry if i sound demanding, but currently, only the Innovative, Aristocratic and Diplomatic icons are on the wiki, and i'd rather reformat the entire page in one go. Pinpinolo (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2013 (CEST)

Right, all of them have been uploaded. They'll be assigned automatically as long as the current idea group names are kept when using the template. ~ Meneth (talk) 17:23, 13 September 2013 (CEST)

I added the administrative ideas, but as you can see they came out as huge ugly boxes.

How to fix?? Pinpinolo (talk) 02:16, 14 September 2013 (CEST)

Use a table so that you get three columns; one for each for Admin, Diplo, and Military. ~ Meneth (talk) 10:57, 14 September 2013 (CEST)

Template?

I feel like we should adapt the Idea Group template to work here too.--• General Baker (Talk | Contribs) • 17:10, 13 September 2013 (CEST)

That's the plan. Just need to get all the images uploaded (which shouldn't take long). ~ Meneth (talk) 17:11, 13 September 2013 (CEST)

Beautiful page

Great job with the display of national ideas, colourfull, easy to read, just very nice keep it up General WVPM (talk) 13:20, 14 September 2013 (CEST)

Terminology

It's probably too late to change now, but I really wish "national ideas" hadn't become a widely-used name for selectable idea groups. Calling these "national ideas" is redundant at best because there all ideas are national in scope. Furthermore, the generic national ideas are called "National Ideas" in-game, indicating that the term "national ideas" are more correctly used to refer to country/group/default ideas rather than the selectable idea groups. If I were able to redesign the terminology from scratch, I would change "national ideas" -> "ideas" or "basic ideas" and "unique national ideas" -> "national ideas", with the term "unique national ideas" referring specifically to national idea groups unique to a single country (and its formable countries if applicable). --Evil4Zerggin (talk) 09:45, 15 October 2013 (CEST)

It should be entirely doable to change the terms around a bit. ~ Meneth (talk) 09:50, 15 October 2013 (CEST)

Agreed, and I'd say it's proper to do so if the game's terminology mismatches with the wiki's.--• General Baker (Talk | Contribs) • 09:52, 15 October 2013 (CEST)

From time to time it does happen that the in-game names are worse than the alternative, but that does not seem to be the case here. ~ Meneth (talk) 09:53, 15 October 2013 (CEST)

Right, it's been done. General Baker can have the honor of fixing the group ideas on the national ideas page, since he's the one who decided it'd be a good idea to hardcode how they display on the page to the title "unique national ideas". ~ Meneth (talk) 10:22, 15 October 2013 (CEST)

Done --• General Baker (Talk | Contribs) • 14:55, 15 October 2013 (CEST)

Also, someone will have to go through Special:WhatLinksHere/National_ideas and check the non-redirect links to see if they're pointing to the correct page and using the correct name. I updated all the redirects, but there's no real way to automate that for regular internal links. ~ Meneth (talk) 10:27, 15 October 2013 (CEST)

Idea cost

Suggesting this article is rolled back to A/B-class until this information is added. --• General Baker (Talk) • 02:34, 6 November 2013 (CET)

Rolled back to A. I'll let it keep its fancy little star though. ~ Meneth (talk) 02:35, 6 November 2013 (CET)

Effects

Effects should be spelled out completely, not just left as icons. This is referring to the list of events specifically. ~ Meneth (talk) 21:49, 12 December 2013 (CET)

Old

Idea Group	Decisions allowed	Decisions prohibited
Innovative	Pass Education Act (4) (+0.5 /year, -5% , +5% ) Pass Naval Recruiting Act (4) (-10% , -5% , +10% ) Pass School Establishment Act (6) (+4% , -3% , -2% , +3% ) Reform the Government (7)	Pass Witchcraft Act (3) Pass Combination Act (3) Pass Licensing of the Press Act (4) Pass Anti Liquor Act (4) Anti-Christian Edict (4) Establish Russian Patriarchate (3)
Religious	Pass Witchcraft Act (3) (-10% , +1 , +2% )	Accept Religious Sects (4) Support the Haridasa Movement (4) Support the Advaita Movement (4)
Economic	Pass Dissolution Act (6) (-5% ) Reform the Government (7) Pass Judiciary Act (7 + Administrative ideas) -1 (, -3% , +1 ) Pass Court of Wards and Liveries Act (7 + Aristocracy Ideas) (+5% ) Pass Tenures Abolition Act (7 + Aristocracy Ideas) (-6% , -5% ) Introduce Provincial Taxation System (4) Move Court to Versailles (7)	Colonial Restrictions (3)
Administrative	Pass Judiciary Act (7 + Economic ideas) , -3% , +1 ) Pass Militia Act (7) (+6% , +5% ) Reform the Government (7)
Trade	Pass Merchant Shipping Act (3) (+5 , +2.5% , -5% ) Establish a House of Trade (4) (+5 , +2.5% , +5% , -5% ) Pass Importation Act (4) (-5 , +10% , -5% , +5% ) Pass Navigation Act (4) (+2.5% , +10% , +0.5 /year, -10% , -1 ) Adopt Plutocratic Administration (7)
Exploration	Colonial Expansion (4) (+5 )
Naval	Pass Naval Recruiting Act (4) (-10% , -5% , +10% ) Enlist Privateers (6) (-50% , -0.5 /year, +10% , +0.2 /year, +5% , +3% ) Confirm Thalassocracy (7) (+0.25 /year, -10% , +1 , -2.5% ) Establish the Fleet as our Wooden Wall (4) Establish British Merchant Navy (5)
Aristocratic	Institute Liberum Veto (1) Pass Licensing of the Press Act (3) (-5% , -10% ) Pass Tenures Abolition Act (5) (-6% , -5% ) Pass Combination Act (5) (+5 , +5% ) Pass Court of Wards and Liveries Act (7) (+5% )
Plutocratic	Benign Neglect (6) (+4% , -4% )	Anti-Christian Edict (6)
Offensive	Pass Recruiting Act (4) (-10% , +10% , +10% )
Defensive	Improve Fort Defense (3) Pass Naval Recruiting Act (3) (-10% , -5% , +10% ) Pass Recruiting Act (3) (-10% , +10% , +10% )

Cheaper tech from ideas

-2% per idea, for tech group of its type. I'm surprised it was overlooked for so long. There's even a perfect chapter named "hidden effects" for it. Knowing this will help people properly evaluate those -5% / -10% tech cost ideas, namely that they're not that amazing in the grand scheme.--Coineineagh (talk) 04:21, 5 February 2015 (CET)

Reform Governament

How does work Reform Governament decision with National Idea? For example Steppe Hordas? Or Bukhara formed by Uzbek? They hold the Horde national idea or they switch to Generic? Stigni (talk) 14:24, 10 March 2015 (CET)

Depends on the nation being formed. Uzbek keeps its national ideas when forming Bukhara, but Venice abandons them when forming Italy. Each decision will tell you if it will cause your country to "adopt new traditions & ideas". The decision to, for example, "Adopt Plutocratic Administration" (i.e. change government form) will generally leave your traditions and ideas intact. Hairy Dude (talk) 02:24, 12 October 2015 (CEST)

Missing idea groups

I'm sure in my game there are the same number of idea groups for dip/adm/mil am I insane or is something missing? Dauth (talk) 10:44, 25 July 2015 (CEST)

Plutocratic/Aristocratic is an either or for military depending on your government type. so 6 options each for adm/dip/mil --Trimble (talk) 11:42, 25 July 2015 (CEST)

Espionage

Espionage idea group does not have horizontal lines in template, between first four ideas. It looks strange. Puchacz (talk) 10:10, 2 October 2015 (CEST)

Yes it does, use ctrl+shift+r to force redownload of page. I've also forced the server to refresh the page. Dauth (talk) 10:17, 2 October 2015 (CEST)

AI idea group choice

Please add the information where are those modifiers defined. Puchacz (talk) 19:10, 12 December 2015 (CET)

Sorry, I forgot to do that! I added a note pointing to the file containing the modifiers. On an unrelated note, I'm not sure if the name I used for the section is good enough, but I can't come up with anything better --Tre3qwerty (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2015 (CET)

OK thank you. Maybe AI preference? Since the article title is already Idea groups clarification is not crucial there. Puchacz (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2015 (CET)

Yes, I'd say AI preference is definitely better, I'll go ahead and change it --Tre3qwerty (talk) 22:32, 12 December 2015 (CET)

Ideas affecting MTTH

While I'm more then half-way done with the revised section format, I find myself wondering if it's really needed [in the sense that it's an overkill]. After all, similar modifiers affecting MTTH didn't get this treatment [such as advisors ] and I'm worried it will get outdated - again - rather soon since it is a chore to update the section as it requires scouring the whole event folder [I'm not even sure I got all of them in the process].

In short,

1. Should the whole section be scrapped in favor of a short paragraph?
2. Deploy the new format and hope for a more frequent updating [the last was 1.11 --> 1.16]?
3. If you're in favor of leaving it should advisors get the same treatment?

As I see it, the ones who would benefit the most from this [ideas/advisors list] are min-max players and in-depth strategy writers. ~ SolSys (talk) 19:29, 2 May 2016 (CEST)

I have never read this section. Effects on MTTH or the weight of pulse events I consider not as importent. Rather, if there are events, missions or decisions which made possible by certain ideas/advisors. – Lillebror (talk) 20:00, 2 May 2016 (CEST)

Ideas without certain DLC

Currently the idea groups are shown as if you own all the DLC's. But some ideas are different without them and that isn't explained anywhere.

1. Expansion 4th idea adds -20% CoT Upgrade Cost with Dharma and without it's only -50% Rival Border Fort Maintenance

2. Innovative 2nd idea has 50% Innovativeness Gain with Rule Britannia and -5% Idea Cost without Rule Britannia

3. Exploration 6th idea has -25% Expel Minority Cost with Golden Century and 5% Settler Chance without Golden Century.

These are the only ones afaik — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stronghold (talk) 09:05, 4 October 2019‎ (CEST)

Thanks for your report. I will deal with it.

2. solved

for the others I have to expand the template.

– Lillebror (talk) 07:39, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Done. – Lillebror (talk) 14:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Table of Contents

I am trying to duplicate the functionality of having the individual idea groups displayed in the Table of Contents. But even just copy pasting the entire source into a new page doesn't work. Stackpointer (talk) 01:34, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

That's because the {{Idea group}} template is checking for the pagename and only creates headings on national ideas and idea groups page. – Lillebror (talk) 05:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

New military idea groups

I've split up the military idea groups in two sections. This makes more sense to me, but I can see why people might disagree. Do we need to hold a vote or something? -- Iferius (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2021 (UTC)